All right. You also um just, just like any other day, you know, I got up, I went to work and now I'm hanging out with uh two of the most iconic human beings in the Rocky horror community, period with my good friends, Aaron and Meg. Nice, nice treasure. You, you, you're really burying the lead here and not only do, do we have you and, and Meg here, we've also got Phil, our wonderful, wonderful friend from the Eighth Street Playhouse, the boy genius. I'm, I'm trying to represent. But you know what? It's such a pleasure to be back on the show. Thanks, Phil and I, and I hear that uh we've got another guest here with us today. Well, yes, that's true. So, uh with no delay, let's give it up for the one the only sell Piro. Who? Hello, Sal, how are you doing guys? My God. What happened in my apartment here? Turns into a recording studio. Oh God, indeed. We have strong cables all over Sal's living room. And uh yeah, we are very excited to get to, good to talk to you today. Sal, thank you for joining us. Well, everybody kept saying to me, there's this great podcast and I kept saying, how come nobody's asked me to be on that one? It just took us some time. Ok? We were scared, we were nervous and now we're not. No, don't, please don't be afraid. This isn't the Squid game. Ok. Oh, it's not. I'm out of here. They're making a second one. Isn't that right? Yeah. So I think we should kinda, uh, jump right into it and we've got a ton of things that we want to talk about with Sal today. How about I tell you the first time, my first time. Ok. Yes, please. I had a very good friend who I used to sublet from and we were very good friends. We like the same movies and he had seen this movie in the village called The Rocky Horror Picture Show, like four or five times, which meant nothing to me because I've seen other films 2030 40. And I said we're gonna try this out. So I went down with my couple of my friends, one of them Mark Shaman who wrote Hairspray and, uh, the, the recent musical on Broadway. And, uh, we went to see this thing. There was a line outside. It was very early in the run and we walked in and it was like, we walked into a movie, it was the Waverly in the Village and everybody was just, it was an excitement in the air and we loved it so much. I kept thinking I gotta get this album. Where do I find it in those days? It wasn't like on the, all the shelves and everything were people dressed up back then. No, no, no. It was starting to, it. It was just starting to happen. The first time I went, there was a rumble in the audience voices and people cheering and stuff like that. Nothing had started yet. And there was a guy who sat in the front of the balcony named Louis, the kindergarten teacher with a great voice. And Janet came out with the newspaper on her head and he screamed out, buy an umbrella. You cheap bitch. And the place went crazy. And then we'd spend the rest of the week before we come back to two nights of Rocky. We'd spend the rest of the week. What can we say here? What can we say there? And then do started coming and she just wore eye makeup and then, you know, within two weeks she's in full costume and full, full regalia. And um people started doing little bits like somebody bought me a big ring, a giant ring, a toy ring and I lifted it up and this is nicer than Betty Monroe had. And just all these little things started creeping in and everybody was like, oh my God. And the movie started at midnight in the village. And all of a sudden we were getting there at eight o'clock just to get the front row seats that we wanted. Joy sat in the balcony. I sat in the fifth row in the aisle and it became a thing and we all for those 3.5 hours before they let us into the theater, we just got to know each other and we started going out to the Village and eating lunch and dinner together and we hung out together like we were like long lost friends. And Rocky was the thing that brought us all together. And I was a little older, I was 25 26 when this was happening. Everybody else was in their early twenties or late teens and people started dressing as the characters and we started doing a little comedy bits and Mark and I would think of all these different lines to shout or throwing hot dogs at the screen. And all of a sudden the newspapers started noticing and they wrote about us and people were coming down not only to see the movie, which is the reason why we do all this, but also to see us, you know, it was, it was really something I think that kind of goes into the very first thing that we actually wanted to ask you, which was what was like the moment that you saw the floor show expand to fully shadow casting, the film. Like, was there just one specific night that everyone was like, we gotta have one specific character, one person playing each character, somebody make a list or was it just, like, totally organic? Um, it's, it's, it's different upon with the person. Like, for example, Joy was sitting in the balcony in the front center seat, in the balcony. And the night that she came in the outfit, she stood out on the balcony and everybody turned around and put lights on her. Oh, cool. And it was cheering and craziness and stuff like that. And then the next week she got a, she, she made the cape and came down to the suite for in the aisle and I was doing little, I wasn't doing the characters per se. I was doing a little stick, you know. Um I had my Shabab Shabab Bob thing for Doctor Scott and it was a big notebook and I'd make everybody sing Sha Sha Bob. And so we were doing other than just group. We never really in the beginning did the entire film. We did mostly the musical numbers uh because we weren't prepared. The Waverly didn't have a dressing room and, and stuff like that. And then people moved to the malls, you know, you, you have all this storage space. We had nothing like that, right. So that's us. Now, basically at the village East we have next to nothing. We have a fire escape in the back of the building and that's it. It's kind of a return to form. But it, it's, it look back at those days and I really miss them. You know, I mean, we had everything all set, we knew what we were gonna say at what times it got a little out of hand just shouting back to the screen. It got a little vulgar. It didn't need to be vulgar and I'm not against vulgarity. I can say fuck with the best of it. But are you fucking joking me? So I, yeah, like I'm like Ruth and Ozark, you can't even stop saying father, we've said far worse on this podcast. I can't believe that I made an Ozark reference that's streaming for you. People don't know what that is. So um it, it just, it became this thing. We wanted to not really top each other but add to each other. And initially we jumped with time warp happened, we just run to the front of the screen and all the, all the, the just a normal thing to do. But what I did was I jumped in front of them and tap danced as Columbia and just dressed as me. Sure. And the next week a girl came dressed as Columbia. Well, that's your spot, girl, you go take it now. And so I went from being the Columbia for the moment to, to this girl in beautiful costume like that. And then a couple of times we'd have the usual, you know, who was friends with Dory, who was part of s group and, uh, the balcony versus the fifth row. And, uh, you know, there'd be more than one magenta and there'd be jealousy. Do DOS friend Robin, um, had to deal with this girl, Maria who looked better, but Robin was one of the group and, you know, all that kind of stuff happened. But, um, I, I never thought when I was 26 years old I would celebrate my 72nd birthday talking about it on a podcast, which I didn't even know what the podcast was. Happy birthday. Thank you tomorrow. Yes, you're like a day over 20 20,000. Now, uh, if I can add at, at this time in, in your twenties, you, you were, you were an actor, you, you were acting and stuff. Well, what happened was I was in the seminary studying to be a priest. I know, I know you could all shrug and, um, I've studied to be a priest and I took a year, a leave of absence because I didn't have any money and I wanted to see what the world was like and you know what the world was pretty good. And, um, I, I never went back and I had gotten a role in New York in a gay, one of the first gay musicals in New York called Gulp. It was about six gay guys on the beach and the lifeguard and I was the, the comedy relief and, and, and so I started, you know, I wanna stay in New York. I wanna be in the village. I wanna act, I wanna be a comedian and the people were very receptive to it. I did some stuff and then all of a sudden, you know, Rocky started and went to Rocky and it was nice. Like, am I gonna do this play or am I gonna go to Rocky Horror? And Rocky Horror always seemed to win and, and you were gonna play with Nathan Lane too, right? Oh, yeah, we did, um, there was a theater company in New Jersey called the Half Playhouse and Nathan Lane. And I were in his, his real name was Joe Lane. And, uh, we were in the show together called Anything Goes the old Cole Porter show, stuff like that. He was the comedy relief even then he was incredibly talented, I'm sure. But, but you, you've seen him since then? He still remembered you? Yeah, I, I saw him at some screening one night and he, he knew who I was because I, I think he knew the whole Rocky Horror thing. You know, the whole Rocky Horror thing. It, what's funny is being recognized in the weirdest places. I went online in San Diego once and to see Rocky and I was just there for seeing San Diego and, uh, all of a sudden somebody, like, somebody recognized me. It was the weirdest thing and people like, oh my God. Oh, my God. Oh, I had my, my enemies too. You know, certain people who dressed as the characters would be enemies with people who were trade the Bera, the same characters they did. But me, it was like, who are you to do? Rocky? You know, haters gonna hate. Haters will always hate as we know from social media. See, I know what social media is and I know who the Kardashians are and I can name them in order of aid. Don't be shy. So, I mean, we're talking about the, the big whole Rocky horror thing, right? I mean, and, and right at the beginning was when, you know, you formed the fan club and you know, all this was there like a big catalyst that kind of told you like somebody needs to organize this, somebody should be me. I should, you know, this is what happened. We were sitting around one day, one week getting ready for Rocky and we said, you know what'd be great? We need to run, have a convention because, you know, there were Star Trek conventions and all that. We need a convention and then we were all sitting around. Well, how do we do that? I said maybe we need to start an organization like a fan club or something so we can make some money to run a convention. So we did that and a group of us met on a week night at somebody's house and we decided to have like an election and said, but I was a little older and I had already started the whole thing with the fan club with them and stuff like that. And it came down to like, I was running against Dory and Dory said, I don't wanna do that. I don't, she didn't wanna be fan club. She just wanted to be frank. So they gave it to me, which I took easily because I, I always like to be an organizer. And so we started the fan club and what was interesting then because we didn't have any money. We, we charge it was $3 for half a year and uh four do no, $4 for half a year, $7 for a year. And the third week we got a letter from Australia, you know, with money in the envelope, we were like, OK, it was Australian money. No, no American. I remember that you get it like, I don't know what to do with this. You're making me pay the currency could write because this was before, how would do it for you? Right. So we did, we, we started this thing to run the convention which we end up doing years later. And that's another story. But uh he uh we made me the president and then nobody else wanted to do it. So I did it and I did it and I did it and I did it and then, you know, they asked me to do Creatures of the Night. This is Lou Adler stepping up. All right, Lou Adler, the producer, the grand of Rocky Horror. I'll tell you, he really was a very smart, he still is. I mean, a very smart man. He marketed Rocky in just the way not to overdo it and allowed certain, like I immediately, they, of course there were T shirts and things, but they didn't like, sell Rocky horror toilet paper yet or anything like that. And, uh, he, he really kept the movie good. Mhm. And I appreciate it and, and we've become over the years good friends. He's a really smart man and I appreciate it. And I was a big fan of the mamas and the Papas. So Lou a was always in my head always. And, and Chong too. It's one of the other. Yeah. Yeah. Not always in my head. Although I do have a favorite and joke. Well, it's just, it's from one of their albums where they say Mexican Americans go to night school, take Spanish to get a B I, I have a lot of identification with that. Puerto Rican American, Puerto Rican. No, I, I, they were all right. I wasn't into the whole pop culture, you know, and stuff like that. But uh the mamas and the Papas. Oh, yeah, we just, uh, a couple of weeks ago we did a uh episode about Lou and uh the Roxy and the Sunset Strip and all of his stuff there. And I, I was fascinated to find out just how ingrained he was in the L A music culture, you know? You know, he's in the rock roll Hall of Fame, right. Oh, my God. He's amazing. I mean, when you think of just think of three things, Carol King, Rocky Horror Chong and then Rocky Horror, it's like, it's incredible. Yeah. Anybody else had one of those credits? They'd be great. He's got four major credits, right? You know, on top of everything at the whiskey, go and all that crazy. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to, I'm secretly trying to direct from behind. Have you ever seen Ladies and gentlemen, The Fabulous Stains? You actually made me see that movie, Uncle South. How is that? Yeah, it is so awesome. I remember when it first came out, it was at the, at the film form or something like that. And you said it's important that you go see this film. There was like a couple of films you always said, go see this film like Paris is burning his head, go see this film. Oh, Paris is burning. The good thing about ladies and gentlemen, the Fabulous Stains Diane Lane as a teenage girl. And they have a rock rock band. We're the stains and we don't put out and it was all about these people coming to see them at the malls dressed as them. So it had that Rocky connection so tangential to this stuff. Um, and, uh, uh, specifically to some of the, the early I, I'll call it tumultuous kind of stuff around the fan club and everything like that. Um, I know you've touched on this in creatures. Um, the fan club wars. Adam Sarges, all of this kind of nonsense. I'll bring it up. I mean, you don't have to talk about it if you don't want to. I'm curious. that's fine. Adam Sarges was somebody who was very much into marketing and selling stuff and stuff like that. And he hooked up with me in the beginning because we didn't know any of that stuff, you know, but the problem is it just, uh what happened was we were getting all the publicity. He wasn't and I, I had many fights with the owner of the Eighth Street Playhouse. He got, he was so jealous of the family we made. And I said, you know what, I'd rather have the million dollars you made showing this movie for the list honestly than people saying, oh, he's funny. You know, I mean, it just, he came in one night and he goes, who the hell is your press agent? And I went like this, I said, somebody who started the cult that everybody's watching all around the world or somebody who owns a movie theater. Uh, hello. I said, you know, I said, meanwhile and I did, I said, I, I'd rather take the money you made really. But anyway, he passed on, he actually had somebody owns kill me once. Really? Yeah, this is a true story. I don't really share this but I feel like it was a glass of wine. Somebody get this man more wine. The 10th anniversary through Lou and through Fox was at the Beacon Theater and it was on Thursday night which happened to be Halloween and Steve was reaping the benefits of all these Rocky fans being in New York because I got Richard and Pat and Nell to come to Eighth Street Friday and Saturday. We, he didn't have to pay them. The place was packed, you know, and stuff like that. He was, he said to me, well, how come you're doing it? And, uh, I said, because we have 3000 people coming and you only hold 500. That's why it's at the, uh, Beacon. And he was like, so he goes up to one of the, his security guards, big, big guy. His nickname was animal or something like that. It is never a good thing when somebody goes up to somebody whose nickname is animal and points at you. I'll talk to them actually though, it just has a nice ending. Steve said to him, gave him $100 and some, um, pills. He said, put those pills in salads, drink right before he goes on stage. And you want me drug. If I had taken those pills, I would have freaked out on stage and the guy happens to animal or whoever he was, happened to like me. And he said, so he said, you know what he told me the whole story, he said, I kept the pills in the good. And then Steve had a record weekend, right? Made a ton of money. Anyway, this is why you are always friends with the security guard named Anna. This is exactly why you make friends with him. So you've answered like millions of fan club letters in your time. Like you wrote the book on the phenomenon, like not to mention the trivia game so much else, you know, but is there anything out there that is still like nagging at you? Something that you wish that you had solved or you had known more about? Well, I think Phil. Phil tell you this, that we, some of the letters we used to get were unbelievable. Remember the I'm gonna tell you a story about this woman if somebody wrote me a lot and I could say they were obsessed with Richard or I would throw an extra picture in their, their newsletter and stuff like that. And there was this one girl crazy for Tim Curry cra she was nuts. She was from Oklahoma or something and I'd send her pictures to Tim and she wrote me back. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you. I love it. I love it. I love it. And so then one day she sends me a picture, she had a nose job to have Tim's nose. Oh. And I thought, oh, ok. So I, I thought, oh, this is strange. Well, then a year later or six months later or something like that she writes to me to thank me for all that I had done for her giving her Tim pictures and stuff like that. But she's no longer into Tim. She is somebody new Martina. I was like, what? I just spent three years writing to this girl in love with Tim Curry and she switches over there. Martina Narra is all over. I know this is the craziest thing I've ever heard when we stopped writing. I wonder how much it was to get her nose to be looking like Martina. We had so much fun though, reading the letters because some of them were obsessive. Oh, yeah. Sure. And, and this was a time really before the internet was big. I mean, or even existed because when people had questions and people had literally to write in about it and we would answer, I, I had Phil and Karen and Margo and they would actually answer letters. People write back. Go. I can't believe you actually answered us and ink. Oh, in the beginning, I remember back in the days people used to uh go upstairs and you would be sitting there like kind of doing fan club work or like folding and putting the buttons and stuff like that upstairs. And then it became a thing in your house like just folding, putting, folding, putting, this is my living room. This is my bathroom. This is my folding and putting room and oh and cards, cards, everybody is like, oh my card is number 40 7-Eleven. I am I the only one that has that number here you are. I thought the card would be really cool if everybody had 40 7-Eleven because who's gonna remember who number 7000, 630 or anything like that? And, and how many, how many times do we have to answer that? No, you're not the same. 40 7-Eleven. Luckiest person. I'm the luckiest person. You, you'd be amazed. It took me forever to find one of those on ebay that wasn't 40 7-Eleven cost me a fortune. No, all the fan club letters. All of like, I mean, it's, it's the primary sources that I use a lot for, um, all the stuff that we do on the podcast and we talk about. So I have primary sources over here. Yeah. So a very large collection of all that stuff, but nothing close to all of it. And I slowly keep piecing it all together because, um, it's, it's the history that's there. So. Well, you know, it's interesting as I got older. I certainly keep certain pictures and stuff like that, but I can't keep that. You know, I, I'm ready to clean out storage. But I think all my Rocky stuff is, uh, I went to different conventions and the, the fan, the actual fans who ran those individual conventions didn't have any money. So what we do was to pay for my trip. I just do an auction at Rocky and, uh, I would throw in, you know, some autographs and things like that and we do an auction or a raffle and every 11 fan, one group from what state they were from Michigan or something. I went to, to their thing and they were gonna be in the, in, in the uh in the hole for money. And I did, I said, I'm making some money. I put together a little bunch of real collectibles and we had what they call a Chinese auction. Do you know what that is? It's amazing what you do is you just keep having people bid, say you bid five, I say, all right, we'll start the bidding at $5 and say you bid five. You gotta put the five in my, in my thing. If you're the last person to put money in my pocket, you win the whole thing. So then he'll give me $5 and he'll give me five. And now I've got like $100. I say, OK, now we're gonna give the prize to whoever gives me $10. And next thing you know, the, the group is running, this thing is $1000 that I made for them. They came and they said, oh, my God, you saved their life. I said, we're all in this together. You know, I always remember one of my, the first convention I ever went to was, I think, um, ac 08. Um, I think you were there because I remember you held a raffle and I were called Larry Ran that one. Yeah, that was one of Larry's always, always enjoyed listening to that convention because my sister went to it and me, Larry and my sister all wound up at the same crap table. How did you guys do? What, how did you do? We won that night. And I said to your head stop better than I did that convention. I think I got thrown out of that casino. You were in charge of the fan club for over 40 years, you know. Um So is there one thing that you could pick out as like, what was the most ambitious, like logically like logistically complicated thing? You know, what was the craziest thing that you look back on and go? I don't know how we pulled that off. I think, you know, one of the things I could say with that is the audience participation album. Oh OK. That because what happened was we lou wanted to do soundtrack of the film with the shouting. So we booked a recording studio and I stood like at the top of the teacher and behind the podium and I go, you know, OK, on the count of three scream ass hole and they get on the count of four say, you know, slut or whatever, you know. So they made the, they made this thing and then they flew me out to California and made me sit there and listen to, to it and it was so static. It was like, so asshole, you know, and I was like, it was, it was crazy. And Howard Frank, who Lou's nephew who was actually produced that album. He and I sat down and then with Lou of course, and Lou said this isn't working. So the best thing to do is let's go to the theater and, and actually film it happening, which we should have done from the beginning, you know, and it was, it, it was so much different and, and some more it sounded real because it was real, more organic. Yeah, it's so weird to think that they just decided to be like, all right, well, let's take this like Super New York at this point, like Super New York, super like gritty reality of what Rocky Horror is. And what like being a part of an audience participation show is and let's put it in a recording studio with like these fancy, this fancy mics, this Fancy mixing table, this Fancy X Y and Z and totally strip it of what makes it unique. Like why not just go to the theater and the theater, or did you do it in, like, did you play it in US? Oh, we did it at Eighth Street. Oh, really? Yeah, it was at Eighth Street and before that, when we were doing that static one, it was in some recording studio. But no, that didn't work. And so you learn things over the years. Um, people didn't appreciate. Fox would sell the rights to certain products and stuff like that. But, or books or the, but the people who were buying the rights didn't know anything and Fox didn't know anything. So they would give them my phone number or somebody from the group. And, um, then they expected us to do it for free. Like this one company that was like, we're gonna do the super eight version of Rocky. Ok. All right. That, this is way in the beginning and he said, but we're only allowed to do 23 minutes of the movie. So I need somebody who's gonna help me edit the film. I basically told them what were the most important things to include in the 23 24 minutes? And then I said to him, well, how much am I getting paid for this? He, he, he looked at me like I was a, like a freak and I said, what? He said, well, we were gonna buy you lunch. I said, no, you weren't gonna buy me lunch. Well, yeah, I'll take the lunch. But, uh, you're also going to pay me and it was $50 but it was still money. I mean, it just, it's, it's, it's amazing how they took the fans for granted. Some people did, other people, you know, would treat us like we were royalty. So, you know, and what was interesting was that some of the people within the cast had their own fan clubs or fans, you know? Yeah. I mean, do really? Was it people loved her because when they, she came close to you, you actually felt you were with Frank, you know, and she could do his voice. So I still remember back to that uh 10th anniversary when she sang and just like the first time I had because I was normally like an eight reader like Dori had not, you know, and then when Dory came and sung, I was just like, holy smokes. What you do? I'm going home, right. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just like, and it was like, the, the whole audience is just like everybody just stopped and Tory had an album and one of the songs was played in the Sopranos and uh her album was great. And what Blue Gin? That's one of the album. Yeah. The good thing about it was that joy and I were always friends. We never had a problem or anything like that. I mean, she, she, she acted like Frank. There were times where I could see her get mad at somebody. She was Frank, you know, so you talked all about the, you know, the first we, we, we always hear about Louis and, and the first stuff there and how you guys were evolving, you know, some of that stuff at the very beginning. Um What was some of like the most heinous things that people tried to throw or that people tried to scream or what? Or is there any that you were just like, I wish that one had caught on. I loved that. Well, Mark and I were, were the ones throwing the hot dog and we got in trouble for that. They were like, it's bringing rats into the theater, stop it. And we were like, and you know what we, that time we weren't, we didn't have any money. So it was like we had to go out and buy a dozen hot dogs. It was expensive. Yeah. You know, so that didn't go over and the big thing, which kind of really made the whole announcements and them seeing stuff came from the fact of the lighting of the candles or the matches. And that is when the Waverley came up to me and said, look, we're gonna have to close this movie down. We can't have open flames. What people are high and they have newspapers on their head, which makes sense. You know. So, so they, they said you seem to be one of the few people that has everybody under control. So they said tonight you need to make announcement. No, no candles. No, nothing like that. So, the woman I remember the woman, she managed to theater an old German woman named Denise Borden. She was great. And uh so that night I, well, everybody was just hanging out. I said, excuse me, excuse me, you know, you all know that I'm here and I love this movie just like you do and they all want. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I said, but they're gonna close us down, bring flashlights, bring anything else but don't open any flames during, during Rocky because they will close us down. And that night down, a single light was flame, was, was opened and place. Cheered and Denise. Good. Now you do that every week you get up there and do it. So I'm here. I am with an audience. I was like, oh, ok, why don't we celebrate some of these 15 times singing it or, you know, Happy Birth. It's Phil's birthday or something like that. And it became, the thing became being the MC. It was just as important as dressing as a character, you know. Yeah, it's, it's definitely one of my favorite things. It is, it is 100% my favorite thing to do. Like every single time I get casted, I'm like, cool. I'm playing Frank or cool. I'm playing R but when I see myself under host, I'm like, yeah, that's what I'll talk about and then do you want? Yeah, exactly. That's the thing. And then when I get casted as MC and Frank through the roof, my ego is so astronomically high that evening you, you can't beat it. And it's funny that you say that, you know, back then you had issues with people bringing open flames to shows where almost 50 years later we have the same damn problem. It's like, it's been 50 years. Y'all haven't learned this yet that you should not have an open flame inside. Yeah, there's a flashlight in your pocket now. Take out your phone, man. Oh yeah, that's right. We didn't have those in those. Yeah, you have to actually go home and like get a flashlight and bring it. Everyone has one now and they still lighters the amount of effort it would take to go get candles, right. You have to have them. Well, flashlights work too. Yeah. God, I re I remember those when we started carrying all that and, and we go to the movies, carrying bags of groceries. What was the, what was kind of the first thing that you were like? Ok, we're, we're an organization kind of now. Like I've started doing this. Like what was like the first big purchase that you were like this is for the cast. Did you guys like buy microphones or a prop piece? No, everybody bought their own props and carried them home. Like I said, we had no thing at the Waverley. And we really, and because of that, we really did. Never, we never in the early days did the entire film. Never. And when we, with the cast on stage of the 10th anniversary, I can remember somebody from another cast up in the balcony yelling down at us when it was all over and people were leaving. What's the matter eighth street? Don't you do the whole movie? Meanwhile? Whoever they were. Oh, that, I can remember that, that, that I remember. Oh God, it's, it's great when you're having like a chat session and then all of a sudden something triggers something else. Um Probably when we moved to, where did we, we went to 55th Street, Eighth Street. There was uh yeah, the 55th Street theater and then, and then we went to to back to Eighth Street. But the other little N Y U Eighth Street theater between you and then to, yeah, that was, it was something Eighth Street. It was called Movie Movie Eighth Street. So there was Movieland Eighth Street, which was good because actually a former Rocky uh uh how he used to was the manager from, from that theater I remember back in the days. Oh, so that was like an easy slide and nice. There was various different people that he knew that various different, there was an evolution of uh all related Rocky people that are always infiltrating these theaters. Well, that's how we got back at the Village East too was because there was somebody there who was familiar with the phenomenon, familiar with how to manage a theater with a Rocky cast in it. So it was just kind of like it was a no brainer once they found that we were looking for a theater for N Y C, I remember all those different moves and we had a break in the, the, the break in the, the, the, the employees of the theater. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You had to let him know. No. Oh and especially the security because I always talk about, there was that one person at a the movie line East Street East. Um There was this one guy I remember he had a mustache and he really, like, he was like kind of like kind of like former cop and he was just like, would destroy our microphones, like literally just pull up the microphones and like, yo, we were doing good like li literally little Nell just came there like everything is like, didn't matter. I hate you guys. Oh I hate you. Oh Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people hated us at the theaters, the, the owners and different things like, oh, hold on, wait a second. There was, I remember there was that time back in, in the days where people used to just show up just to fight like, you know, wanted to start trouble. Well, you know, when, when we had the big ride at the Waverley. Uh One of the, one of my comedy bits, early comedy bits was playing Janet and a Brown and uh I can, what's happening here and I come down there and people will go crazy. It's in the Rocky horror book, the original Rocky horror book and people there was a gang that hang out, hung out in the village who didn't like all the attention we were getting, we were stopping traffic and stuff like that. And one night they got me into the theater early because they were, they were out to kill the guy in the world. Thank God. Ron desantis was the mayor of New York at the time. Did I say that? No. Do you hear about the drag queen thing? He, he's gonna arrest any parents who take their kids to a drag show. So this is excuse me, Shakespeare was a drag show, excuse me? Dr literally Shakespeare had his, his, his son in drag. I think it was his son's name. You heard it first here, folks parro says don't move to Florida, feel bad for the cast out there. Yeah. Right. But you know, we're talking a lot about like the drama that you had to kind of endure whether it was like internal cast or external gangs trying to, you know, pull one over on you. But like in your opinion, um what was like the spiciest cast, specific specific drama that happened while you were in charge. What's the t, I don't understand. I started, I was aging and I was now, especially when we got into our big fame. I was in my late twenties, early thirties. Everybody else was 17 and we know the feel we trust me, we know that feel and Phil. Phil will tell you, I didn't get involved in any of that. Yeah. It's so funny because in the, in the beginning and like everybody was into the gossip. So I remember, I remember, uh, gossip with the agents of gossip where was like getting on spicy stories is paramount. We had a joke where we sat up in the balcony. It was my sister and I and Justin and certain people and we were, we Kay David and Jimmy and we would sit there and just make tease all these young kids. And so like that and we called ourselves G OS S IP. Getting all these spicy stories is paramount, right? And, and sometimes there would be, uh, there would be announcements or people would send in blind, uh, articles or something like that when you would read it out loud right before the show. So there was always, there was always a stuff to the preshow. That's why those preshow were, oh, the preshow were great. We actually had everybody dressed and did we are the world. How neat. Phil, you, you, you did the dentist number from? We, we, uh, I did dentists with Amanda and her sister Courtney and uh I remember we did uh dancing in the streets with me and that man, Mike. That's right. And then what was his name? Ed, you and Ed. Ed was, he was a funny looking guy but hysterically funny black guy. And he and I put on wigs and we did enough was enough Barbra Streisand and Donna Summer it brought the house down like there was always this little, we were like competing. I don't even know what we were competing for like prizes or something. It was just for fun and like each week it would like, it would be like little lips contests and that one just won everything. It was done. When we were in 55th Street. I started this thing called the Pots Olympics and it, it was all my, all my favorites like Phil and Margot and all these people and they led me down the aisle when I was introduced and we used the absolutely fabulous theme. Absolutely. And I came down and I said we should have a contest and who's the best of the posse? And, and I would say, ok, tonight, it's Phil versus Margo. Ok, you're gonna get one point for the person who collect the most condoms in the audience and they're going around with him, give us condoms or pennies. It would always be something like that. And, and then it was a way to kind of like you were the main high mucky Mutt. But it gave a chance to give uh all the other members of the cast a chance to shine. Oh, it's amazing that, you know, all of those fun things to entertain the cast, you know, before the show and all of that, that kind of stuff is kind of over the years evolved into the absolutely crazy, overly complicated preshow numbers that, you know, um There's, we have a whole, a whole segment for them at our, at the upcoming R K O con where they're doing, you know, all that stuff and that just like what started as that became way too over engineered. Yeah, exactly. Because it was just, it was lip sync contests and now it is fully orchestrated, you know, acrobatic. Uh oh some of the ones we did at the, at the like 20th 25th anniversary that those contests were unbelievable. Yeah, they, they, they rented trucks and brought props down and it's amazing. I love that they did remember there was that one cast in California that did um they did a whole Rocky thing with Dangerous Minds. That was one of the most creative things I had ever seen. It was incredible song parodies, things like that. Um Another thing uh from the early days uh 11 of the like most important parts of Rocky to me and our cast is of course just like hanging out, getting around to fuck around with everybody, you know. Um, we've kind of had to evolve, you know, where we're hanging out over the, like, you know, the venue moves, we go to a different bar, we go to a different thing. What was, like, your favorite place to go, like, after the show and hang out? Oh, Tiffany's in the Village. It was a, it was a coffee shop and my sister and Jennifer and a whole bunch of us would go there every week. And we was like my regular diner because I lived in the village for a while and we started this thing where we'd buy a cupcake. This is three o'clock in the morning. We'd buy a cupcake and put a candle in it and get up and go to a random table and sing Happy Birthday to somebody and give them the candle. And people were like I said, it's a birthday festival. And finally the owner said to me no more birthday festival. I'm like, you, you're getting a sale. I'm buying a cupcake. But we had a good time. You know, some of the, some of the more rambunctious of the group went to that S and M place. Oh, right, right, right. Ninth Circle or, uh, uh uh, wait, wait, wait. Um Hellfire Club. Yeah, I didn't, I, I wasn't about to participate with the Rocky Kids there fair. In fact, one of the, the woman who was the, uh, she was the ticket taker at the eighth street playhouse. She was a big thing in hell, fire, a big old mama. And her son was an usher and was totally embarrassed to see his mother like playing around with these kids. So, uh, point blank, tell us about your favorite ducklings. Favorite what, what are ducklings? Just like the little in the, the, the, the little people that kind of were around you when you were head honcho people that would do anything and everything that would drop whatever they wanted to do whatever you needed done and you take him under your wing. We're not talking about a sexual angle here. Not even close. No, because the thing is I was very lucky. Uh You know, I'm, I'm proud of the fact that I'm attracted to old men. What I am, I've never had a problem, I've never had a problem with a kid, you know, because I'm not interested in them and because I was so I honestly did have people coming after kids coming after me and I'm not even a hand around shoulder. You gotta be, you have to be careful. I didn't treat them as if they were just doing things for me. If I really, really like them. Like Phil is one of my all time favorite people and so is Margot and I haven't seen Karen in ages, but uh Karen would be too certain people and of course my sister was there for years. Um But uh it was just like you take and I will say for the record as, as a person that grew up working for the fan club and things like that, like, I really didn't have a lot of like parental guidance kind of a thing and, and I, I looked at, and the, and the rocky people kind of like, like a family kind of things. And by taking me under the wing, I feel like I've, I've grown up to be a, a decent human being and I learned a lot of values from horror. So if anybody wants to say anything, now take that in uh Florida, I'm just not saying Florida personally. But if I did like somebody, male or female, if I, if I really, really like them like to like their personality, I like what they could do. I would take them under my wing. Justin was under my wing for years and let me tell you we had some funny stuff. He was a natural comic and uh made him queen of the theater once. Get up, get up. He's standing with a, with a, with a, with a sword. Get up, you bitches queen. And he did Richard o'brien was there and he did the Vanna White routine with Richard's name turning around the right. Right. Right. There's a picture of that in, in the bucket increases the night. Oh, yeah, I, I certain people I love ST remember but Phil. Phil Margo and and Karen are, I mean, uh and John used to help a lot and Joe's girlfriend, what was Joe's girlfriend's name? They opened up that lizard shop in Florida. Joe was the one who made my cape famous cave airbrush cape and also was giving out a early tattoo. So I know mad man, Mike got an early tattoo and everybody, he was trying out the tattooing thing. That's where it was. I got my first tattoo from him too, so. Oh, very cool. And I, I think I passed away. Well, speaking of your cape actually, since it came up, um I have a question here, that's about like your favorite piece of Rocky. You know, ephemera memorabilia. Just kind of what's, what's your most treasured thing or something that got away from you that maybe you wish you still had? Oh oh you're gonna, you're really gonna get upset with this story. I love making Aaron Mad. So I'm here for this. Let's just say I'll tell you, I'll tell you what happened to it before I tell you what it was. I was given something as a gift and that's when my friend Alex was involved in the fan club and helping us with fail a convention and all that. And this piece of memorabilia was actually in Alex's house and Alice didn't take it. There was nothing like that, but they had come and cleaned out Alex's house with family divorce or something like that. And I think it got thrown out. You ready? The criminologist Jack. Oh, son of a bitch. Oh, that really hits home for Aaron specifically because he loves playing crim able to play in the after, after we do this, I'm gonna show you my Charles Gray collection. You have my attention. So, so, so the vibe is that Aaron is the person who is like very much into like the, the history of Rocky horror, the the memorabilia side from it. And then I'm the one who's hot, right? And then it's funny because that has nothing to do with the podcast because nobody sees my face. It's a real, it's a real shame. So we're gonna let Aaron do a lot of this, but I'm gonna ask you the first one. So in the early days, like a huge portion of the fan club contributions and content was in the form of fan fiction and other like derivative works, things that were not necessarily canon to Rocky. Is there a story that you remember that fit in super neatly or had such a unique angle that it's practically canon to you in the Rocky universe? I have, I, I hate to just point you but I was never into the fan fiction thing. Good. Me neither. I was just purely into Rocky, you know, I mean, certain other movies I'm obsessed with too Priscilla Queen of the Desert. They all seem to involve Dragon some way. But now Phil you did the Disney version of the or the one? Yeah, that, that, that made it into the book. So I was glad that I, I just saw that the other day I was through, he did all the Rocky cast as The Simpsons. That was, yeah, I was flipping through the other day. That's when I found your uh rocky audience demographics. Yeah. Thank you so much for finding that man. And I used Phil's artwork in both of my books. So both of the creatures books and also uh also play like whenever we were doing things for other stuff because I remember we were doing a promo for Dead Alive. You also hired me for that too. So I was just, oh, that's right. And, and you didn't do Jungle Bust, did you? I did some guy came, guy made this terrible movie called Jungle Bust. It was, but he said maybe you can make it into another rocky horror. So like he hired me, people came up to me afterwards and said really? So, but he was a nice guy, you know, who knows? You can't make a rocky. Like, you know, it just happens. It's like that thing for the room. Like the room came out and everyone was like, oh OK, like people started going to that because they wanted to see how theoretically bad it was. So then it became a thing. So when like Rocky, it became a thing. Yeah, it became a thing. You never know what's going to become a thing. I'm watching this thing on HBO now called the Baby. The baby is a murderer. I was like, smiles the whole time. Never looks evil. Never. You never see the baby kill and you watch them go. Oh, but it's interesting what, what turns you on with us? And do you remember, like, when, when Rocky was and I guess this later on, um, when, when we were over at 23rd Street? I remember, remember that, um, what was that stripper movie? They were trying to make it into the next rock movie? It was show, I went one night I left Rocky to go. I had it see it and you know what, there were a couple of cute ideas but they were forcing it down your throat. Yeah. All right. I think, I think they had head of lettuce introducing it and stuff like that. You really kind of camp it up. But, yeah, he is very, yeah, I mean, the, the closest I think that any studio has come, right is like Rio, the Genetic Opera. Um, the room does really well. Now though that wasn't intentional at all. You know, it's, when it's not intentional, that's like Rocky. It wasn't intentional for, for it to be. So, have you sat through the whole room unfortunately? Yes, several times. Yeah, we do it. They, they, they do it at a, so that's my, like, get trashed. And in that one cast version of you talk about Repo Man Repo The Gene. It's a musical adaptation of the same story that it's, it's also horrible. Uh not a, not a huge fan. Now, then, now, then you get somebody like John Waters, every one of his movies, every one of them has lines that you could shout at them and has everything. And Mink stole Margot actually was the stage manager for a show that Mimi stole did. And I got to go backstage and meet Mink stall because Desperate Living is my favorite John Waters film. You know, John Waters, he just really understands trash. I mean, I don't true. I don't know. All right, but he just understands what the pulse of, you know, to give the people the thing to do the thing. And he's not like he's not trying. It's like David Lynch, like David Lynch does his thing and everybody goes and he would find these interesting people and put them in his entourage and then just make magic with them. I mean, the thing is female trouble. Oh my God. When, when they're all sitting in the, in the, in the school and they go, oh Mr Weinberger, Dan Davenport is eating a meatball hero in class and she's passing notes and, and then they're in the bathroom and they say, what are you getting for Christmas? Well, you know what I like to do. I like to take the presents back and get the money, you can do that. You know, I mean, it, it, it's really difficult right to manufacture something that hits like that, you know, like, and I mean, they Fox kind of tried with shock treatment, you know, to kind of recapture, you know, the, the kind of thing was really a stretch trying to do shock treatment. Yes, it was. I, I have, I, I had a lot of fun though going to London and actually being there on the set and doing my little mini cameo where you can't even see me. But it, it was the reason for that was because I wasn't a member of the, the, the union. So they couldn't give me any kind of feature thing. So they put me on the phone and they said just turn around and it was ok. I got, you know, I got to hang out with Charles. I got to hang out with um, Ruby Wax. Who was amazing in that movie. Yeah. Was it, uh, was it your favorite compared to like fame and doing the remake? You know, just recently? Oh, that would be interesting. I never thought of that. What was my favorite that I participated in? Oh, it has to be fame. You know why? Because when I was a kid and the reason why I know so much about show business is I read the credits. I did everything when I was a kid. Every movie. Every TV show, you know, I can name the whole cast of my little Margie. Right now when you, most people go what? My Little Margie, some sitcom in the fifties. It was the summer replacement series for Lucy. Anyway. But, but it, there'd be all these different things that I, that, that, that I would love and I'd love to read the credits and at the end of fame I was sitting in the theater and the credits come up and I saw my name. That's the, gave me the biggest kick, biggest thrill that I had. I'm in the credits, you know, with a speaking role who needs a union. And, and that actually happens. I mean, some guy yelled at me from the theater the night that Alan Parker was there. So get on with it. He was like, what I thought he was coming to see him get on with the show. And I said, this is the fucking show and the place went nuts. And Alan Parker said to me, I loved what you did to that audience member. I'm writing it into the movie because see, I went to the, they invited me to do auditions for fame. And I said, why am I here? There were 2016 year olds there and 10, 6 year, 16 year olds there and me, but I, they were all reading from scripts and I was sitting by nothing in my hands and the guy said to me. Look, he goes, I want you in the movie, I want you to play the MC of the thing. And so I was basically reproducing something I had done in real life. Yeah. No. Fame. Fame is it? Yeah. And it's a great movie. It is. I, I would have never watched it if not for Rocky. I mean, that's why I sought it out was because you're a bit in it and just like, oh yes, this is, this is the movie that's brought Rocky to, you know, mainstream box offices kind of thing, you know, to get people aware of it. So a lot of movies try to get that Rocky flavor in there, like a like perks of perks of a wallflower, perk of being a wallflower trying to get it. So seeing your name in the credits for fame was like one of like your highlights just in the Rocky, the Rocky universe that you have existed. But like, let's, let's narrow it down to be something like physical. Like, what was your, what is your most treasured piece of Rocky memorabilia? And like, what's the story behind it? It was probably the jacket that I told you. No, no. So having it and you know, what was interesting about it was it, it was a little bit off color because of the lights in the, in the while they were filming it, it looks like black, right? Yeah, it's like a very dark gray with black propels, kind of it. It was in real life. It was a lighter gray, really? Looks like you're gonna have to get a new one. Aaron. Yeah, it looks like. Oh, that's, and you had, um, Janet's dress for a while too. Right. Yes. And, um, I think we, we auctioned it. Oh, yeah, we auctioned it off to make money for a convention that was losing money. Those, those auctions really come in hand. Yeah. Right. That's the, that's the big takeaway if you're ok. I'm wondering if I should give you this scoop, but it's a real school. Do it, do it, do it, do you know that for years? Um, I, when we did Willie and Phil, which was a little cameo at the end, the whole cast was standing in front of the movie theater. It was directed by Paul Mazursky and my friend Alex was good friends with Jill Mazursky and I've known Jill Mazursky since she's a little girl. Paul Mazursky is a famous director. He directed Bob and Carol Ted and Alice and a whole bunch of other stuff. Anyway, Jill called me about seven or eight years ago while I was out of Fire Island and said, so I said, Joe, what are you calling me for? And she said I just bought your books, Creatures of the Night on ebay or something. And, um, so it's a movie. It's definitely a movie. And, um, I said to her really she goes. Yeah, that's what I do. Now, I find properties to produce anyway. Creatures of the Night has been in development for like seven or eight years and we're closer now than we have been really well because they, uh, found the director. He's unknown, but he's from England. He directed a marvelous series on HBO. And, um, they found somebody who wants to play me. They're not gonna have the whole cast. There's gonna be a dory. There's gonna be a, so there's gonna be a mark. My sister will be in it as a little girl. Um And Ben Platt wants to play me. No way. At 26 Evan Hansen wants to play South Hero. That's amazing. Wow, that's awesome. That's so cool that we have a producer. We have a director. There was this wonderful show that was on HBO maybe six months to a year ago about young guys in the eighties in England dying of AIDS. And this guy's a marvelous director and he wants to. So it looks like it. But again, we're talking two years away. That's fantastic. So, like who, who, who wrote the adaptation? Did the, did somebody come along and do like a whole, like screenwriting adaptation kind of thing for it? Oh, there's a script. Oh, wow. Yeah, it, it, it follows the story of these young people, you know, um They make reference to, there's a reference to me in the very beginning where my mother's picking me up, it looks like she's picking me up at jail and, and we're fighting in the car and she said, I don't want to take this crap from you anymore. And she, she drives away and you see, there wasn't the jail I was in, it was the seminary and then they, they show Mark, they show Jory dressing up in the mirror and stuff like that and these characters all come together and, and start Rocky Horror. Oh, wow. That's a film I go see every time its gonna be a mini series or just a movie they're gonna take whatever they can get. If, if Netflix offers them the, now we're talking. But, you know, they really want it to be a theater, the theater show if they put out a movie and then there was art participation and, uh, and a cast there would have to be right. Somebody playing Ben playing and then of course, you know, at conventions everybody's gonna want to do, they have to start auditioning for it. Be, could you imagine if we got a proper night convention, a convention for? Yeah. Wow. I'm throwing it. Let's, uh, let's do it. We gotta waste the New York cast fund on something. Wow. Did your podcast like it scoop? Oh my God. Yeah. I, I'm sitting there going like it's, it's not out yet. Are we, are you, are you the man you get the wine talking or you're gonna be like, wait, wait a second. Is it the ultimate? This is so cool. I'm blown away and so looking forward to it. Thank you. That's so cool. Actually, they were asking me who, who, who would you like to play you? And back when she first said seven years ago, I said Jonah Hill, I thought Jonah Hill would be a good choice. You know what they thought for a while too. Eugene Levy's son from who I really think would be the best, but he's gotten older now. So I need a more Sassier version. Talk about a show that blew me for a loop when I saw the ad for it originally. Shits Creek. I went, oh, this is what I need to see. Not. And my friend, I have a friend who only sees like Maggie Smith movies. Said to me, oh, Sally, you got to see Shit's Creek. It's wonderful. I said from you, I, I can't believe this, you know, I mean, this guy follows Vanessa Redgrave around. So I said, ok, well, I'll try it. I can't believe how good shit Creek is. It's really funny. And I liked him. I thought that the son because I usually having been in the gay world and worked at Fire Island and all that. Sometimes people playing gay characters kind of get on my nerves because I've seen it all, you know, but I thought this guy is different, you know, he's really, there's something about him that there's a real intelligence behind his performance, but I'm happy with Ben Platt if that's where it goes. Yeah, that, that's an awesome casting. Yeah, that'd be amazing. I'm so, I'm so here for it. I'm so here for it. How do you yet again? I feel like it's the third time we've said this. But how do you follow that up? Yeah. This episode, it just like keeps giving. Well, we can follow up uh a hot upcoming property with uh some lukewarm never made properties. That sounds delicious. Yeah, I, I wanted to, I want to talk about eventually of the old queen, the, the uh the cartoons that were supposed to be made at some point. I didn't know if you know anything about any of this, some of the things like the cartoon that was a showtime thing was possibly gonna happen, never happened. Uh Revenge of the old Queen. We thought was, we thought for sure it was gonna happen. And they turned that into shock treatment and shock treatment. Well, that's because they knew they weren't gonna get Tim curry. And so they made Janet and Brad the centerpiece. You know, I love shock treatment. I think there's some of my favorite. I love the woman who plays Janet. She was great and fan of the Paradise. She's amazing. And I love some of those songs and, you know, D and D and all that stuff. I got to be there while she was filming me of me. I sat there in awe watching her just doing, she really so great. I was there for that and I was there for the dent number while they were filming that. Oh, cool. Yeah, I, I, I mean, honestly I like some of the music in shock treatment a little better than some of the rocky songs. So, like, you know, not admittedly not the hugest fan. It's one of the recurring gags on the podcast that I absolutely hate shock treatment. But at the very least I will agree with you there. The Music of Shock treatment. It's good. Yeah. Oh, that's fun because you also did the um you were shooting the behind the scenes kind of special when you were doing over the rock. Yes. That, which the guy who produced, it was really nice, really smart. And uh I remember flying to London. This was so sad. I woke up in London after being on a plane all night and John Lennon's death was announced and I heard it in London and did that get me crazy because I was Beatles too. Very big on the Beatles. I was 14 when the Beatles came out so hard not to be at that point. Well, speaking of uh projects that may or may not, uh Creatures of the Night three, I'm gonna ask you. Oh, no, no. The problem with Creatures of the Night Two is if you don't know anything about Creatures in Night one. It's kind of a boring book, you know. And so Creatures three years, 20 years later is like, no. Well, I had to try also. I'm 72. No, in two hours. Any, any wishes and hopes for the next. So now that Rocky is on the precipice of 50 is there anything that you like foresee for the 50th anniversary? There'll be something because uh Lou Lou A and I have not talked about it, but there's gonna be something. Is there anything that you would like to see personally happen for the 50th? Well, the thing is so many things have happened over the years. What, what's their new other than just have a memorial service for Jonathan Adams and Charles and meat loaf and Tim Curry in a wheelchair. You know, it's a shame he, uh he gets around though. He's gone to a couple of con fan conventions and when we did that thing in um where new uh Los Angeles named it Rocky Horror Day. And that was really, uh that was an exciting time actually. It was, people were great. Yeah, I heard through the grapevine there was uh what was it two or three years ago when we had to lend our costumes to the, the Democrat convention for the, the virtual Rocky show. I ended up having to be the person on our cast to deliver some of the costumes to Rosario Dawson who ended up being the person to play Magenta. Uh It was literally incredible. She like, invited me into her apartment and like, we just hung out for like three hours. I was like, I'm hanging out with Zara and I need to scream. But she was actually talking when I, the next day when I had to go pick everything up from her about how, like, how full of life Tim is, despite everything that is holding him back right now, she was like, I fully expected to like, just kind of like sit there and be like, and mourn the fact that like, we have this literal icon in this condition. But she was like, I felt as if I was talking to Tim Preke. It was wild. It was incredible. And I was like, thanks Rosario. That's really cool. Rosario was with um Cory Booker for a while. Was, was that a real coup? I mean, she talked about him when I was there uh and referred to him on a first name basis. Yeah. No, she referred to Corey like on a first name basis as if like I knew who he was. And I was like, this is strange. I need to leave soho right now. You mentioned uh Jonathan Adams. I did have a question about it because um I know that after Rocky Khan one, um he did a set at the duplex that you had hooked him up with. Um Jonathan. I, I had, we mentioned before that I had done stuff at the duplex and Jonathan wanted was coming for the convention and he contacted me and said, is there a place that, you know, I can do my one man show? I said, well, actually, I, I work at this place called The Duplex. I can get you. And uh we discussed it and he liked the idea of me being in his opening act and stuff like that. He's a very clever man. I saw him, I saw him do the revival of Rocky on the west end, but he played, I don't think he played Dr Scott. He, I think he played the criminologist. I, I, I'm, I'm having a little blank on that, but he also did this show based on Tom. Have you ever seen that? I haven't seen it but I've heard of it. He's the one that does the Vatican Rag Je Je Je and stuff like that. Jonathan Adams was a very clever man and generous. I met him to the Rocky conventions and I was coming to London um for some Rocky stuff to look for stuff and just, or just hang out. And, uh, he said to me, oh, come stay with me in my house. Oh, wow. And, um, I got there and there was a note on the door that said he got called out of town for a show. So here are my keys and joy. He just left his house for the week. Wow. Yeah, he and I became good friends. He's a nice man. Was a nice man. Yeah, I was, I was curious because, I mean, I, being one of the, the cast members that has passed on, you know, all I've got to go on are, you know, the recollections of other people. I read his autobiography, which is just such a weird data. Kind of like, I don't know what's true in here and what's not kind of, you know, delightful, you know, kind of thing. They really made him up to the movie because if you ever see Jonathan Adams, not as Dr Scott, he doesn't look anything like him. He really doesn't, but Charles Gray looked exactly like he did heard, he never sees his own movies. So I think just to kind of close out what we've been talking about for, uh, you know, the past time. Um I think a nice kind of ending question that we can ask for you. Sal is, what advice do you have for Future Rocky horror cast leaders? Oh, make sure you're in good stead with the theater owners so happy we switched because if you get a bad theater owner screws everything up, screws your whole show up. Remember that there's a thin line these days with the me movements and stuff like that. And even though some of the stuff that the, the E MC does in the beginning, some of it is you just can't do that anymore. But I get upset because there were, there were innocent people being charged and there were guilty people who are being let off the hook and that will always, that always gets to me, you know? But I'm all for, no, you have to do it. Yeah. Main point is don't have favorites. Keep the peace, keep everybody cool between each other. Like, you know, learn to navigate between the different clicks. It's, it's much like it's kind of like being the president at a like school or something like that. There's all these different, like the hippies here and there, there, there you need to be able to bring everybody together to create a beautiful show that's gonna keep people coming back to the theater and also keep people like, you know, keep the audience people because that's where you get the new blood, you know, so you get them all psyched up and when people see great performances, people are like, I want to do that and that's where they get it. So they do it right. That's why I don't get upset when I see like anybody. It's just like, oh that uh that foxing or it on Glee or something like that's a sacrilege. No man. It's just to get new people in also. You gotta be careful too because so in the early days, I never had to deal with social media, you know, and, but you do now, you know, and the thing is you gotta be careful, you gotta be careful because the most important thing is keeping Rocky alive. Yes. Right. Yeah. Like I said, you, you were the original person that said, uh, Rocky is gonna be the, the movie of the, what? The seventies into the eighties and the nineties. And, uh, here we are in 2022. I did another podcast, uh, for some old friend of Karen's. And at first I thought this, oh, this is our podcast. Everybody's talking, but it turns out you're the guy, everybody. Rocky talk to you. Give it a plug. Yeah, you're so amazing. You know that Phil said, thank you. I am a boy genius. I'm just representing, I, I learned no longer, no longer a boy and definitely not a genius. I'm just making sure educating uh future geniuses. Now I'm doing my best. The last day of school. Today is the last day of school. So, yes, thank you. Yes, I also came for my education job straight here. So I feel you preach my girl. So, thank you so much. Oh, listen, I had a ball. Maybe I could do another one next year. I have a million. Just bring the whites in for Dale and I'm good. I'll do another one next week. Yeah. You want the best Rocky show I ever saw? Oh, yes. What is the best Rocky show that you've ever seen? Milan Italy? What? Really? I, they flew me out that there was an older man who was in love with Rocky and he was friends with the cast and he wrote to me and said, oh, I can bring you to Mulan for a week and host our weekend shows. The Frank was the best I ever saw. I actually thought I was looking at Tim Curry the whole time and they had little bits and things that were different than anything. We did. Their time work was impeccable. The audience was all in tune. That was great. And the other one was great was the one in Japan. I came in 24 hours before the show and I had to teach with a, with a translator. I had to teach them what to do. And I thought, oh, this is gonna be awful. And they went home and studied, you know, because they're very fastidious, you know, and it was one of the best shows I ever saw. That's the one that they, they toured, uh, with the shadow cast, right in Japan. Like they went on to, or am I thinking of something else you think? Well, I don't know what you're talking. The current, the current, uh, Japanese cast is lips and they are all sorts of awesome. I just wanted to throw it out. Yeah, I haven't heard anything from them in a while. I need to need to get my international Rocky up to snuff. But I, I, I've seen some great. I mean, the creativity is unbelievable, uh amazing.